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Miss Von Trapp

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Elder Goth Snootiness!! (digging myself a hole) [Jun. 23rd, 2004|03:38 pm]
Miss Von Trapp
[Mood |awakeawake]
[Music |Very sodding windy outside - rattling the tiles!]

Left for work at 9pm last night and called in on Spikey and Gordon along the way...

Had a good chat and catch-up - might drag Spikey out to BlackCatz on saturday, since he's not been out for a few months. Gordon has a snake in the kitchen - I said 'badger badger (etc) SNAKE!!!' at it, and then we discussed what they're both up to band-project/sound engineering wise and then I went to work at 9:30.

Work last night was somewhat of a skive.

Got in at 10pm and spent until midnight doing 're-training'...didn't need it but it got me out of keying for a bit... Lunch at 2 as usual, then Work Time Learning until nearly 4am... Then I listened to music for a bit and got into a healthy debate *cough* with Jui-ehh!! about 'What is Goth?'.

Oh dear oh dear... I must admit to getting a little 'elder-goth-snooty'...and referred a lot to the 'socio-political' origins of the era that influenced the culture and how it wasn't the same anymore...wasn't comparable. That anyone new to it (ie. at least 4 years younger than me) wasn't 'proper goth' and had merely embraced the dress-style/old music/new media-labelled 'goth' like Marilyn Manson without understanding - like a chav wears burberry...

...and I said they couldn't be 'real goth' because they are 'goth by numbers' in Omen clothing/other labels which never before existed so I had to express my creativity PROPERLY with charidee shops (and still do). My god, I remember the days when we had to improvise white faces or mailorder - you just COULDN'T BUY the white clownpaint they sell in ALL the alternative shops nowadays. Hell, those shops didn't even exist!!

Mostly whinged that a lot of the tiddlypeeps do the 'gother than thou' thing and I don't believe they have a right to do so...

And mostly that 'goth' per se doesn't exist anymore - yes, there are now little sub-groups like cyber and stuff - which I do listen to, but mostly Nick Cave and schtuf - but PROPER original goth as an era has long died (in the UK at least) except for us old and bitter elitist elder-bastards drinking bitter/snakebite'n'black in the corner of clubs and attempting to educate the toddlers who have claimed it as their own but mostly got it horribly wrong...

Little Trothics!! (trendy gothics)

Snooty snooty me...

Jui-ehh!! couldn't really grasp what I was getting at (she's 21 and into deathmetal - but gets called goth herself - her dad listened to Nirvana when she was ickle, whereas I grew up on grandiose church organ music and classical) - so our conversation moved on to labels and how 'da kids' call themselves 'goth' because that's what society labels them due to excessive wearage of black - but how they're NOT goth really...and that goth is NOT about 'oh I hate my parents I want to slit my wrists and die in a churchyard' etc etc etc but is more educated - cheerier in fact;)

I'm rambling - but that's sort of the gist of it. Made more sense in conversation. It was a tired but audible debate because the rest of the team began discussing roots in music and such like too...

(oops!)

Suddenly, I feel OLD!!

Oh, if you want to read more about the 'Great Goth Debate' - then I suggest you read this guy's posts: http://www.livejournal.com/users/sistersacrilege/

*grin*

Fell asleep a lot between 5am and 6am, went home in sunglasses, my black hat (stop the rain leaving purple dye trails down my face) and long black coat - looked like a victorian undertaker lol!!

Sharon dropped me home and we had a good chat along the way - since we've been forced to move seats at work we can't sit next to her to talk anymore. Jui-ehh!! and I have been placed on a corner near the boss to keep an eye on how late Jui is back from breaks usually:/

Slept from 8am till about 3pm - must have been tired since being up from 10am yesterday, now I'm up and about, need a shop trip as this black coffee is giving me gutrot...

Catch you all later;)

SPOOKYKIDS NEED HELP PLZKTHX?? GO HERE: http://www.vampgirl.com/gothfashion.html
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Comments:
[User Picture]From: mina_laury
2004-06-23 08:09 am (UTC)
Oh, I do like the word 'trothics'. Permission to borrow?
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[User Picture]From: missvontrapp
2004-06-23 08:16 am (UTC)
Of course you can!!

That word actually originated amongst my group of friends in approx 1991 - sitting about town and commenting on the younger lot lol!!

*grin*
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From: scar_let
2004-06-23 08:41 am (UTC)
Hmm..."goth proper" doesn't exist anymore, eh? Say that too loudly at Tenebrae and you might not make it home!

But seriously, that's is a rather elitist attitude to take. So basically you're only a real goth (TM) if you're older, wear second-hand clothes, and complain about how the "scene isn't what it used to be"?

Bah, in my opinion goth is something far more personal than clothing, age, or bragging rights.
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[User Picture]From: missvontrapp
2004-06-23 08:55 am (UTC)
I don't believe it does exist proper. Not in the UK -except for pockets in London or the big cities perhaps. It has 'evolved', yes, but you can't recapture the early days...post-punk backlash, political environment and all that! It's a british thing.

It may well seem an elitist attitude, yes, but you have to understand the goth culture I have grown up in - small town, close-minded and all. We used to get stoned and spat at for how we looked - these days no-one even comments - far too many teenagers wandering around with pasty faces lol!!

Think Big Black's 'Kerosene' track and you get the picture. It may have been different for those in bigger, more advanced cities, but not in this hole in the Westcountry;)

Of course goth is a personal thing - but I am referring a lot to media-labelling here and those sheep who embrace it without thinking of the past history or their own personal creative sides.

:P

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[User Picture]From: missvontrapp
2004-06-23 08:59 am (UTC)
Oh, and btw, I may not have explained myself very well anyway. I certainly haven't expounded my views in full here. I was just pretty much recanting the chat that Jui-ehh!! and I had last night lol!!
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From: scar_let
2004-06-23 12:10 pm (UTC)
By "recapturing the early days", do you mean everything should stay the way it was in 1981? I mean, were you even there when it all started? (I certainly wasn't.) You seem a bit young yourself to have made it to Bauhaus's original gigs...

For the vast majority of my life I haven't resided in a big city. The town I come from in upstate New York has very little by way of a scene, quite possibly less than you have in your town, in fact. Where I'm from, if you're all done-up for going clubbing you're risking a confrontation if you stop to gas up your car. Still, your argument basically seems to be that it isn't fair that kids today have an easier time of it than you did. Tough. Life's like that.

If anything, you should be proud that you helped pave the way for those kids to be more accepted. And sure, the young ones might be a bit goofy now, but they'll either drift off and become ravers or stick around and learn something. It's a shame that older goths look down on the next generation instead of introducing them to things they may not have discovered yet.

As for it being a British thing...please. What the British scene needs is far fewer bands trying desperately to capture the Fields of the Nephilim/Sisters vibe and more people willing to push the boundaries of the musical genre.
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[User Picture]From: missvontrapp
2004-06-23 10:59 pm (UTC)
I don't mean that at all - what I meant was that the era itself can never be 'recaptured'; things evolve lol, and I have to move with that!

Of course, there are plenty of new bands out there, and I enjoy listening to their music and discovering innovative new stuff - but I'm naturally nostalgic for the stuff I grew up on - and got myself into a 10 year hole listening to Nick Cave exclusively (amongst indie bands and things), so it takes a while to catch up...

I wasn't ranting to be negative about the newbie kids - besides, without the current market how would I be able to purchase sexeh pointy boots and indulge my love of stripy socks lol...

And I don't entirely look down on them - I was one once remember - it's just the ones that listen to Evanescence and crap that get me a bit pissed off sometimes - especially the ones who complain about not hearing 'proper' goth in my local club when we've just had an hour of the oldies, and then ask for Evanescence when quizzed what proper goth is.

They just need a bit of education lol. They'll learn! And that's what the vampgirl.com forum is for - healthy discussion and pointing in the right direction lol!

What I think you missed here, is that I was mostly having a nostalgia trip for the early days, and that it was a conversation with Jui-ehh!! who I just love to prod with heated debate... I love to play devils advocate in our conversations as she rises to it so easily hehe;)

/rant off
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[User Picture]From: hawklord2112
2004-06-23 09:32 am (UTC)
yeah you're being snooty. but you iz da O.G. (original goth)

certainly you're allowed to look down your leichner-caked nose at all the snotty angsty 14yearolds in their mesh tops and slipknot shirts...
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[User Picture]From: missvontrapp
2004-06-23 09:40 am (UTC)
Go me! I'm trying to provoke some healthy debate lol!!

O.G? Gawd, just how many years have I known you lol - and you still remember the 'biker' days too before that lolol!!!

*hugs*

Slipknot shirts - ewww!!! But I actually have one of those mesh tops - got it to replace my old crochet long one...don't wear it much mind as it itches under corsetry;)

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[User Picture]From: vashe
2004-06-23 02:57 pm (UTC)
*grin* You bladdy snobby elitist cahhhh!! The days of stone throwing have certainly not passed.... and I'm a sodding Londoner...

Personally I see no reason to split the community. There's room for everyone :)
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[User Picture]From: missvontrapp
2004-06-23 10:50 pm (UTC)
*giggles*

I was actually just playing devils advocate - you have to note that this was a conversation with Jui-ehh!! who I take pleasure in *poking* with heated debate hehe;)

Wasn't intending to split the communitah as twere - just wanted to see what reaction I got to some of my opinions hehe - as it is, without noob goffs I wouldn't be able to get sexeh boots or stripy socks lol!!
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[User Picture]From: shepardshadows
2004-06-24 03:25 am (UTC)
I, personally, thing that goth evolves with time. The basis in romanticist literature is still there. But the fashion, and the very nature of the people have changed with the times ;p.

You should have let your makup run :p. Running makup is sexay. Either that, or I am just weird. Most likely the latter.
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[User Picture]From: missvontrapp
2004-06-24 06:55 am (UTC)
Trust me to get stuck in a rut!

The latter? Bit of both I say;)
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[User Picture]From: missbumpkin
2004-06-24 04:27 am (UTC)
Here's to talc on the face and mixing your precious Barry M black eyeshadow with Rimmel's "Black Cherry" lipstick to make it look black! Youngsters today don't know they've been born!
;p
I don't mind the young'uns - as long as they're cute!
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[User Picture]From: missvontrapp
2004-06-24 06:57 am (UTC)
Oh god yes, the white clown stuff in a tube from Jack Cohen's or Rimmel 'Pale Biscuit', then white talc and tons of that Black Cherry lippy which I remember fondly!!

Some of those youngsters need lessons in eyeliner down here hehe;)

I had to relace a girl into a corset at the last black cats who was wearing it upside down lol!!

(perhaps we should introduce a 'hit squad' to fix em up?)

Oh, next black catz is this saturday - you going?
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[User Picture]From: vashe
2004-06-24 11:51 am (UTC)
"(perhaps we should introduce a 'hit squad' to fix em up?)"

*cough*gothic-model-in-Highgate-Cemetery!!!!*cough*
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[User Picture]From: missvontrapp
2004-06-25 07:52 am (UTC)
OMG lol!! I totally forgot about that dodgily done corsetting!!

*coughgigglesindisbeliefcough*
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[User Picture]From: purple_spider
2004-06-25 03:12 am (UTC)

trothics - love it :-)

Naaa
You're not being snooty about the 'trothics' :-) actually I find it highly amusing in an irritating sort of way, the little spooky kids wandering around in heavy black cloaks with thick, bad make up, applied on like they used a shovel, eyeliner so thick it looks like someone punched them hard in both eyes (LOL!) TBH they are just like the flower children of the 60's, middle class kids rebeling against their parents values with whatever is tbe most trendiest rebel persona around - this time its not Woodstock, LSD and flower power, its Marilyn Manson and slip knot. They'll be back to their Rap and House music before long and not a over used black eye crayon in sight ;-)

hugs
debs (another elistist old bastard)
xxxxx
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[User Picture]From: missvontrapp
2004-06-25 09:19 am (UTC)

Re: trothics - love it :-)

Huzzah!!

*is feeling the solidarity*

*big hugs back*
xx
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